Talk:Modifiers

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Stub - This article is considered a Stub-class article on the wiki quality scale

Splitting out the list[edit]

I'm planning on focusing this page on what a modifier is conceptually and how/where it works syntactically. I think explaining what each modifier does is best done in the (modding) pages about the aspect the modifier deals with. Modifiers with unknown use would go in a separate list page. By having backlinks to this page it should still be possible to go through all existing modifiers if someone is interested in that. Bitmode (talk)

Why would you do this, this literally just creates more pages to rifle through while providing no discernable benefit to anyone actually wanting to learn about modifiers. Furthermore, removing the list which provides actual examples of how the code is used on the page for that specific type of code only makes it harder to actually learn how to use modifiers. I strongly disagree with this change and see no reason why it should be made. --Bjarni19 (talk) 22:12, 13 February 2019 (CET)
Having a list of all modifiers does nothing to explain them, except showing there are many of them. The discernible benefit of my version is that I at least begin to explain modifiers (the topic of this page) based on actual research in the game code, while the old version just says "something that can affect your nation" despite modifiers clearly affecting things other than nations. It also makes the page easier to read and update for users who are not interested in the list. 70% of pages on the wiki are outdated even before the new patch hits; making them slimmer will make it easier to keep them up to date or even set them to timeless. Readers who need a reference for some modifier or another already know what a modifiers is. On top of that close to 100 modifiers were missing from the list so it didn't even work as a reference, which I fixed in list of modifiers . Simply repeating the modifier name with some number behind it is not a "specific usage example" that makes it easier to learn. Bitmode (talk) 23:04, 13 February 2019 (CET)
Its because the list you made to replace the one on this page is objectively worse than the one that used to be on this page. It lacks sections, and is thus just a giant list of unsorted modifiers, lacking even the example code that used to be on this original page. The only reason why I even logged in and am commenting on this wiki for the first time is due to people complaining that this page has been ruined by your edit. While I do understand that the previous description of modifiers was bad, that only means that section needed to be rewritten, not that the list needed to be split into another page. Again I see no reason why the list should be split into its own page in a worse form that it was here. --Bjarni19 (talk) 23:21, 13 February 2019 (CET)
Adding a hundred missing modifiers is objectively worse? What is the point of having a section called "New WtT Modifiers"? What do you learn from an example code like "army_defence_factor = 0.1"? In my opinion it just clutters up the page. Where have these people been complaining? Not on this discussion page, not in change summaries, not in the forum, nor on my talk page. If they just want to keep the list, why did they and you undo my entire change? I already stated my reasons for splitting out the list in my last comment as well as in the first; I also asked for opinions on it in the forums. I can copy over the descriptions to list of modifiers though. Bitmode (talk) 23:47, 13 February 2019 (CET)
Moderator edit: I've protected the page while this is discussed. Long and unsorted pages are an issue. I'm going to suggest separating the sections out onto dedicate pages where they are easier to update and transcluding them back onto this page in a collapsed form. Then if people want the full list they can expand what is necessary or go to the relevant lists. Dauth (talk) 23:48, 13 February 2019 (CET)
The point was not that a section called "New WtT Modifiers" is nessicary, but having the modifiers categorized into ones that affect the army, navy, industry and naval sections of the game makes the list easier to read, since I can more quickly find what I am looking for by going to the appropriate section. Removing said sections only makes the list more unorganized. Furthermore, the example code sections give an idea of what the appropriate values for putting into the modifiers are, as there is nothing telling you that "army_defence_factor = 1" will add 100% to your army defense factor. I do think that the effects of the example code should also be defined, but removing it is not the answer. As for the reverts, I have not touched the page, so blaming me for them is simply wrong. The people reverting the changes you made are reverting what, at first glance, can look like an act of sabotage by removing a large section of a wiki page that was fully functional before hand. I do realise that you posted on the paradox forums about this change beforhand, but to be enirely honest that thread is checked pretty infrequently by a low ammount of people from what I can tell. --Bjarni19 (talk) 00:04, 14 February 2019 (CET)
Sorry, I didn't check the author of the second revert. I know that not many people read that forum topic which is why I also posted on this talk page well before making the change. Bitmode (talk) 00:16, 14 February 2019 (CET)
My original plan was to have concept pages, for example war support or unit leader trait and, depending on how moddable the concept is, either a section or a separate page war support modding where the relevant modifiers and defines are explained in the context of their formulas. The list of modifiers (or several smaller lists) would then link the modifiers to those sections or pages. Bitmode (talk) 00:16, 14 February 2019 (CET)
@Dauth I added a transcluded list to the terrain page. Would this style by acceptable here as well? Bitmode (talk) 19:01, 16 February 2019 (CET)

(Unindent) That pretty much works. If you look at the EU4 wiki pages for Germany and Hesse you can see how its possible to transclude a subsection which might make it neater. You should also remember to version and categorise any pages on the wiki. Dauth (talk) 20:42, 16 February 2019 (CET)

Like this? I'm not too sure what the commonality between the transclusions in these EU4 pages and the lists in terrain/modifiers is. I added back sections to List of terrain adjusters by unit and transcluded all of them. Seems even less neat to me than the normal transclusion. Is this what you meant? Bitmode (talk) 22:32, 16 February 2019 (CET)

what about "ahead_reduction"?